Immaculate Conception

topic posted Mon, July 16, 2007 - 2:11 PM by  Unsubscribed
Because I have grown up in Catholic schools and have contemplated the Catholic religion all my life, I have become very curious and filled with questions about the Catholic faith. Lately I have been wondering a lot about Mary, the mother of Jesus. The Catholic religion is the main Christian religion that honors Mary, which is why I have remained involved in the Catholic church long after I became Hindu.

The first question I would like to discuss about Mary, if anyone is interested in talking, is whether Mary actually did have an immaculate conception, conceived the baby Jesus without "knowing man". Or is this just a metaphor?
posted by:
Unsubscribed
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Immaculate Conception

    Wed, July 18, 2007 - 7:55 AM
    Saibya,
    I ran across your question. There is no doubt that Mary had an immaculate conception. This was not something introduced during the middle ages this was actually written down at least as early as a few decades after Mary "died". She always looked young, even when she entered "old age". She also went to an all girls school and was well brought up, but renounced that wealth. She never needed a man, that is for certain because she is fully pure and delivered Jesus without the aid of sex.
    I would take the dust of her feet and rub it all over my body and roll in the dirt she walked on in complete happiness. I wish there was more written about her in the Bible but the early fathers of the Church in their infinite wisdom didn't include it.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Immaculate Conception

      Thu, July 19, 2007 - 3:49 PM
      What a peculiar tradition. It's almost unheard of in other faiths. For instance, Krsna impregnated many queens, and yes they were chaste during the majority of their marriage..... but at least they got to, you know, a few times when it was necessary. Granted, Krsna could have impregnated them all with only a glance, just as he does with maya when it is time to create universes, but during human incarnations, he always makes sure to make a show of his "human" qualities, so that the humans understand what the heck he's doin.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Immaculate Conception

        Thu, July 19, 2007 - 4:10 PM
        Doesn't sound so strange when you consider that Krishna and Radharani's love for each other is so high that sex life WOULD actually be completely insignificant if they even were to have it. Their love is compared to an ocean, and even a drop of that ocean is enough to flood the whole universe, so the so--called pleasure of sex life wouldn't even be noticed by them.
        Even if Krishna is sometimes accused of having loving affairs I have never even heard of Radharani doing anything wrong. She NEVER would do anything wrong, not with thoughts, desires, activities. She is completely pure!
        In fact I wouldn't even be talking about her right now if this wasn't an immaculate thread.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Immaculate Conception

          Thu, July 19, 2007 - 4:18 PM
          Thank you for reminding me Padmini, and I'm happy that you are sticking up for Radharani. It's true, she doesn't even think of anyone but Krsna. And just by his sidelong glance, she almost faints in ecstacy. Is it really true that their love is so high that one drop would flood the entire universe? that's a fact, huh? wow, makes me feel very insignificant in my petty concerns. so i guess if we just pray and remember them, our lives will be successful, and the love between them will flood our hearts with prema (real love). how lucky is that?
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Immaculate Conception

            Thu, July 19, 2007 - 4:30 PM
            O you have me so fed up I will tell you who wants a piece of Krishna's love? Not me and NOT RADHARANI! Send that person to someone else! He is a debauchee and send him to Candravali's or any other gopis house but keep him away from
            radha! I will chastise him myself! And stay away from me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            You unchaste lover of a debauchee!
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Immaculate Conception

              Fri, July 20, 2007 - 8:44 PM
              Sabiya
              were you inquiring about the Annunciation or the Immaculate Conception?
              here's what the Church teaches and what Catholics believe and accept as part of our faith on both:
              www.vatican.va/archive/ca...2a3p2.htm#I

              pax.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Immaculate Conception

                Fri, July 20, 2007 - 9:15 PM
                The eternal handmaiden of the Lord.

                "sigh''

                Reading what is written about Mary is like tasting that nectar for which we are always anxious.

                What do you have to say for yourself Sabiya? Come back in here please we are dying to know!
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Immaculate Conception

                  Fri, July 20, 2007 - 9:24 PM
                  Annunciation means the "Whole fullness of Deity" will be in her son. I did not mean to imply anything less when referring to our Lord Jesus Christ as a saktyavesa avatara. A saktyavesa is one who can become empowered by God to the "fullness" of Deity as needed simply by the Lord's desire.
                  As a sidelight there is a hare Krishna saying, "Jesus Christ is our guru." I don't mean to introduce anything new in here about Krishna I have spoken too much already I just wanted to say I agreed with the Catholic viewpoints on everything.
                  Is there some special prayer to get Mary's mercy besides the Hail Mary? Who started this prayer? It is a nice prayer. If only I were pure enough to see her face to face so I could become stunned and faint and run away in some sort of mood that might seem like madness to others, but made perfect sense to me at the time.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Immaculate Conception

                    Fri, July 20, 2007 - 10:52 PM
                    Please no one take offense by this, especially padmini please, but what i heard is that the angel gabriel actually did impregnate mary. I'm not saying this is true, in fact it's probably not, but I can't exactly rule it out completely unless someone here can defeat it for good. thank you.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Immaculate Conception

                      Sat, July 21, 2007 - 9:21 AM
                      I can easily defeat this argument, Sabiya. Mary would have as much to do with an angel or an archangel as you would want to have sex with a toad. There is a saying that the women on the heavenly planets(not the spiritual world) see the "beauty" of an earthly woman as compared to that of a frog or a toad. What to speak of Mary, the partial incarnation of Radharani?
                      Are you serious Sabiya? You yourself know Radha only wants to see Krishna and no one else. Do you think Krishna would offer Mary to some angel? Not unless this angel was a partial incarnation of Krishna.
                      No, I just don't buy that theory.
                      If you can show me where Gabriel did anything in relationship with Mary other than praise her glories then you might be able to say something different. But Mary deserves nothing but worship in awe and reverence from someone as low as the angels. Just like Radharani is the "Queen", rani, of all the gopis, the girls in Vrndavana. And Radha means one who worships Krishna the best.
                      I don't know the Bible I don't have one but please someone come here and defeat this OFFENSIVE STATEMENT originated no doubt by a foolish atheist hundreds of years ago. How dare you even suggest this Sabiya? HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: Immaculate Conception

                        Sat, July 21, 2007 - 1:48 PM
                        When it was told to me, it was also told that the angel was Mary's eternal consort, which would have to be an incarnation of God.

                        How dare you to suggest that Krsna would offer Radharani to a partial expansion of God?!?! Radharani only consorts with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna himself, not with the expansions!!!*!!!*!!!

                        I don't see anything wrong with sex as a means to conceive holy children when it is done with and only with ones eternal consort! on the other hand if Mary has no soulmate, and she is chaste, even toward God himself like the manjaris are, then that's another thing. i would like to know. thank you.
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Immaculate Conception

                          Sat, July 21, 2007 - 2:07 PM
                          I must confess I haven't got an answer to that. But if she got pregnant with God's child the conception could still have been immaculate that SHE had if she had it with God.
                          • Unsu...
                             

                            Re: Immaculate Conception

                            Sat, July 21, 2007 - 2:42 PM
                            Now we have finally reached my point, okay. All they said was that Mary did not know MAN, and of course the popes who can only stand to think of God as a sexless old man on a thrown with a sneer, lest they feel jealous of our almighty creator, took out the part where god came to her as an angel and impregnated her by way of IMMACULATE CONCEPTION!!! Because Krsna is not impure in any way, and when he mates with the gopis (all of them perfect angels who have no interest in material reality or mundane lust), it's HOLY! I believe that Mary was chaste, she knew no man. Whether or not what I'm saying is correct, who can tell? It may be nothing other than speculation. I've been curious for a while.
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: Immaculate Conception

                              Sat, July 21, 2007 - 3:46 PM
                              It sounds like you are wondering whether conjugal love includes, dare I say it, intercourse, in the spiritual realm with God, is that what you are enquiring about?
                              The answer I heard is that, even if such things happen in the spiritual world, the actual pleasure of the sex act is insignificant compared with the amount of pure love between the two personalities involved, whether it be devotees who are in the mood of parents or even someone higher than that.
                              • Unsu...
                                 

                                Re: Immaculate Conception

                                Sat, July 21, 2007 - 3:58 PM
                                Why would I wonder that when my Guru has clearly stated that Krsna does indeed have conjugal relations with Srimati Radharani. I do believe it is true that it is the love that really matters to them however, not the act, although in the spiritual world there is not difference between act and feeling like there is here. Here people are tinkering with their mechanical parts, hoping to satisfy themselves with pleasure, whereas in God's kingdom, two people shoot each other some sidelong glance and literally melt in the ecstacy of pure affection they are feeling for each other. Whatever Krsna and Radharani do in the kunja, I do not know, nor do I want to try and imagine because there is no way i could possibly understand that with this brain. All i know is that they do it in a mood of devotional service for each other with tears in their eyes.
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Immaculate Conception

                                  Sat, July 21, 2007 - 4:02 PM
                                  Whereas here it is in fact impure, stealing the concept of conjugal relations from God himself who is all holy and bleeding our own very essence of god to satisfy the longing we have for god that we are too proud to admit to. Instead we have fallen under the spell of mundane material lust because it reminds us of the bliss of union with god, and we are using it, rather than to please god, to satisfy ourselves and our false conception of pleasure. a pleasure that is merely a perverted reflection of the land of heaven.
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Immaculate Conception

                                  Sat, July 21, 2007 - 4:03 PM
                                  O saibya you are such a liar! Radharani would never go near Krishna like that. It's easy to find out because all the principle sakhis also have Krishna sleep in their bower houses at night as well. And they peek in on the Divine Couple and whisper among themselves so everyone knows what they are doing.
                                  No, you would have to quote from some sastric evidence in order to convince me of that, some books from the Vedic literatures. Madhava said things like that and that is where we had our problem.
                                  I'm not saying I know what Radharani wants or does but where is this written down? We shouldn't even be talking about this subject here over at a Catholic Tribe. This seems like very exalted subject matter that will certainly be misunderstood here.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Re: Immaculate Conception

                                    Sat, July 21, 2007 - 9:16 PM
                                    Saibya claims to have the book that tells of the intimate relations between the Divine personalities. I saw it, it must be true. I saw part of it online anyway, not the most intimate parts that I could recognize. I like your new picture Saibya, undoubtedly the real Saibya who is also one of the gopis, in fact who is also Radharani in disguise. She very much resembles the virgin Mary to me.
                                    Thank you to the members of this Tribe for allowing others to come here and learn from you. I hope we didn't engage in any "flaming" whatever that is.
                                    Perhaps if Saibya wants she could post some intimate details here for us all to read? Something that gets to the point? Thank you.
                                    • Unsu...
                                       

                                      Re: Immaculate Conception

                                      Mon, July 23, 2007 - 8:00 PM
                                      Saibya did indeed tell me all the details of what Radharani is supposed to do with Krishna and I have to admit I was shocked to hear about it. Naturally I rejected that she does these things with Krishna. Why would she want to do it?
                                      Of course I know why, the mood of the gopis in Vrndavana is to please Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the highest expression of conjugal love and they have no desire to enjoy for themselves. It is only our materialistic mentality that thinks that way. But I am partial to Radharani. How can I believe that she acts in this way?

                                      Certainly whatever she does is known to her intimate friends. Sakhis are girlfriends, specifically girlfriends of Srimati Radharani in this case, and she has eight principle sakhis, who are so intimate they are actually her expansions. They know all these types of things and might do them themselves. But Radharani enjoys more when Krishna meets with someone new than when she gets to meet intimately with Krishna Himself. It is described that way.

                                      "Lower" than the sakhis are the manjaris, and they assist the sakhis in performing service for the Divine Couple, Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. I don't know how much they understand about Radha and Krishna's love affairs at night. But I cannot understand it with my polluted mind. Therefore I don't want to hear about it. I'm sorry I asked. Yes Radha and Krishna can do whatever they like in order to satisfy one another, but hardly anyone can actually understand these things purely.
  • Re: Immaculate Conception

    Thu, July 26, 2007 - 9:25 PM
    Mary did have an immaculate conception, conceived the baby Jesus without "knowing man"

    "Not before that has she associated with men; nor yet afterwards, when she becomes pregnant, has she done so before the time when she gives birth."

    That maiden, who is Gobak-abu, walks up to the water; she that is the mother of that testifying Soshyant who is the guide to conveying away the opposition of the destroyer, and her former lineage is from Vohu-roko-i Frahanyan in the family of Isadvastar, the son of Zartosht that is brought forth by Arang. 16. 'That maiden whose title is All-overpowerer is thus all-overpowering, because through giving birth she brings forth him who overpowers all, both the affliction owing to demons, and also that owing to mankind.' 17. Then she sits in that water, when she is fifteen years old, and it introduces into the girl him 'whose name is the Triumphant Benefiter, and his title is the Body-maker; such a benefiter as benefits (savinedo) the whole embodied existence, and such a body-maker alike possessing body and possessing life, as petitions about the disturbance of the embodied existences and mankind.' 18. Not before that has she associated with men; nor yet afterwards, when she becomes pregnant, has she done so before the time when she gives birth. 19. When that man becomes thirty years old, the sun stands still in the zenith of the sky for the duration of thirty days and nights, and it arrives again at that place where it was appointed by allotment.

    The Zoroastrian fragments speak of sitting in water in Denkard Book 7 Chapter 10:
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Immaculate Conception

      Fri, July 27, 2007 - 6:25 AM
      Zstar! imagine seeing you here on Catholic tribe!? how did you find us over here? (Zstar is our long lost friend from Mazhayasnian tribe everybody)
      Thank you for dispelling my misconceptions (no pun intended) about Mary's virgin birth. Mary just had a union with god and became pregnant, but she knew not man. she was pure.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Immaculate Conception

        Fri, July 27, 2007 - 7:35 AM
        Zstar I'm glad to see you are talking with Saibya again. I explained to her that I wasn't against America, just I was in a bad mood that day. Srimati Radharani is always eternally the same age, according to one level of vision. She is around fifteen or sixteen. I'm glad to see you have so much love for Mary, my favorite element within Christianity.
        I love how she reveals herself to the saints, who otherwise might seem to the untrained eye to be ordinary personalities. And how most of the visions are to young girls. She really is da bomb don'tcha think?
        Have you ever seen how they carry her form on a cart down the street in Italy in a similar way to the Ratha Yatra festivals of Lord Krishna at Jagannatha Puri in India? It is said that Jesus Christ Himself danced in front of the cart of Lord Jagannatha and His transcendental body was laid to rest there too.
        As for Mary's body, when they entered the tomb where it was supposed to be she had ascended into heaven in the same form. Her entire body was gone, clothing and all? Maybe so she could come and go once in a while back to this planet I don't know.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Immaculate Conception

          Fri, July 27, 2007 - 7:42 AM
          Oh I forgot about the topic a second. Immaculate Conception, here is another example. When Lord Krishna Himself appeared in the womb of Devaki, who He took as His mother at that time over five thousand years ago, it is described that first he entered the mind of Vasudeva, Devaki's husband, and from there He was transferred to the womb of Devaki. He did not take birth like an ordinary child.
          Doesn't that mean there was no ordinary sex involved Saibya? As far as I always understood, first he showed up in the sky in His Miraculous Form and spoke to His parents, then He entered the mind of Vasudeva, and then He was transferred to the womb of Devaki from the mind of Vasudeva. And both Vasudeva and Devaki had bodies of pure devotees, they were not material either. It's all a little complicated I would have to either look it up in the Tenth Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam or else ask a Sanskrit scholar or a guru.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Immaculate Conception

            Fri, July 27, 2007 - 9:04 AM
            Yes Devaki was impregnated by the mind of Vasudeva, and when her pregnancy was complete, the Lord stood before her as a full grown man, holding a conch, club, disc and lotus. Of course, this was not Sri Krsna himself, but an expansion of Krsna, the four armed Visnu, who is Krsna with most of his potencies in tact. Krsna of course, in his full form, was born simultaneously from the womb of Yasoda Maiya in Vrndavana, as a two armed "human" child, with a tiny little flute in his hand and a very sweet smile. Everyone thought the four-armed Visnu, with his transcendental weapons was God, but what they didn't know was that our sweet Lord was playing in the forest, swimming in the Yamuna river, learning to herd cows and perfoming his favorite pastimes.
  • Re: Immaculate Conception

    Fri, July 27, 2007 - 8:42 PM
    I am sort of confused by this whole thread...the term "immaculate conception" does not refer to the conception of Jesus Christ, but rather of Mary, being conceived without original sin because she was to be the mother of God. When Mary appeared to Saint Bernadette, Mary told her, "I am the Immaculate Conception." The term refers to Mary, not to the conception of Jesus Christ :)
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Immaculate Conception

      Fri, July 27, 2007 - 10:55 PM
      right
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Immaculate Conception

        Sat, July 28, 2007 - 3:41 PM
        Oh was it Saint Bernadette? Yes she is so fortunate. And Mother Mary. Is that how you say it, Mother Mary? In order to distinguish her?

        Poor Bernadette. She suffered so much. First her family could hardly afford any food to eat. Then it was Winter in France and she had to walk for miles or something to gather up some wood for the house for heat and she was sickly. Then she had her visions but no one believed her. She just wanted to fade into oblivion and get married maybe but that was not Mary's or God's plan. So she entered a convent and the nuns were mean. They made her do exercises or something and she had an infection on her leg?
        But at the same time she must have been in ecstasy. At least sometimes. She saw "Her Lady". She conversed with her I believe and other things, built a church for her. Dug a river. Of course she surrendered to her lady. Who wouldn't? To be able to spend eternity serving her just for trying to live a holy life what a bargain! And it's not that she had a choice in the matter anyway. She must have been holy, Bernadette,
        I pray to her for a drop of her purity. Please help me Bernadette. I beg you for your help. I am so sinful and fallen.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Immaculate Conception

          Sat, July 28, 2007 - 3:43 PM
          O Bernadette, Bernadette Bernadette!!!!!!!!!!!
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Immaculate Conception

            Sat, July 28, 2007 - 3:45 PM
            Please Bernadette, Mary loves you, if you put in a good word for me she will take compassion on this fallen soul. I am convinced you are a saint, and always was, and always will be. Please help me! PLease@@@@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
            • Re: Immaculate Conception

              Sat, July 28, 2007 - 5:46 PM
              I have no idea why the moderator has not deleted your Hare Kristna postings yet but I am going to complain to Tribe about you hijacking this tribe. Your postings are offensive and contrary to Catholic teaching. I am sure you have confused a number of people not familiar with Catholic teachings by now, which I am pretty sure is your goal.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Immaculate Conception

                Sat, July 28, 2007 - 5:51 PM
                Teresa what have I done that is contrary to Catholic teachings? All anyone has to do is ask me to leave, I will. Especially the moderator. I have no goal to confuse Catholics. I really want the mercy coming from the saints. Whether I am a devotee of other things or not.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Immaculate Conception

                  Sat, July 28, 2007 - 10:30 PM
                  wheres the human kindness. someone could give a slight indication and we'd stop. or maybe some people are interested and theres just a couple of apples that can't stand comprehensive conversation, drawing bridges between "different religions". then suddenly there's some big threat, is that friendly?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Immaculate Conception

                    Sat, July 28, 2007 - 10:59 PM
                    My intention was not to offend, it was to defend my religion and although Christians may have similar words as yours it not have the same meanings as yours.
                    There are enough people out there that misunderstand Catholics and it is important that the Catechism of the Catholic Church be understood as it is, not as a Hera Kristna interprets it to be.
                    • Re: Immaculate Conception

                      Sun, January 13, 2008 - 9:19 AM
                      I was doing some research & found this thread ... I already had this on hand so I thought I'd share it here, I thought it might be appreciated.

                      "In the context of myth and religion, the virgin birth is applied to any miraculous conception and birth. In this sense, whether the mother is technically a virgin is of secondary importance to the fact that she conceives and gives birth by some means other than the ordinary....the divine Vishnu himself descended into the womb of Devaki and was born as her son Krishna."

                      Thomas Boslooper, "The Virgin Birth," S.C.M. Press, (1962), Pages 148 & 149. Cited in: "The Virgin Birth of Christ,"
                      • Re: Immaculate Conception

                        Wed, January 16, 2008 - 9:12 AM
                        The Virgin Birth of Jesus is so well accepted throughout the Judo/Christian world, and indeed other faiths. However, the fact that Mary returned to her original state and stayed that way until death, is not. It is difficult for people to grasp the concept of virginity from birth to death, yet Mary was perpetually virgin. Joseph was her caretaker and protected her chastity, though there would have been no sin had they partaken because they were married.

                        Mary and Joseph's abstinence is a lesson for all, married or not, to obstain for a greater glory. ha ha--I can hear your ears perk up here, and the argument brewing in your head. More explanation: The Catholic church does teach in natural family planning seminars obstaining for a time brings the married couple closer to each other and God, spiritually and emotionally, so that the physical is a holy joining together when they do intend to partake of that sacrament. This is something many people are not willing to accept, especially in our day and age. A greater respect for each other is obtained. A deeper, more glorious bonding occurs between the couple and God through their denial of self. The marriage becomes more open to love and acceptance of one another. I can only imagine how close Mary and Joseph were, even without the physical joining, they were joined together in so many other ways. Their marriage was heaven on Earth, the way God intends marriage to be for all couples, though the rest of us are required to fulfill our marital vows.

                        Mary's role is intended to be the New Eve; a woman other women can pattern their life after, and a mother figure for all, generous and loving, tender and warm, forgiving and accepting, and denial of self for the greater good. She is a leader, for did she not tell God himself, her Son, what to do at times? The wedding at Canah, in order to cause the bride and groom no embarrassment for lack of wine. Her role, to teach us that God pays attention to details, and hears us even in the most common petitions.

                        St. Joseph is to be a role model for Christian men, to protect the chastity of the woman and prevent her from giving herself away before the time, to protect her and provide for her, to guard her, to minister to her and allow her to minister to him. Joseph teaches us a holy respect for women, a deep tenderness that is given a masculine face.

                        No other faith can teach us how to respect and honor each other as our faith does, through the marriage and perpetual virginity of Mary.

Recent topics in "Catholic Tribe"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
another prayer request Megan 11 July 1, 2008
I am happy to be here. ChrisW 3 July 1, 2008
New Moderator Teresa 0 May 21, 2008
Moderator duties offlineTigerLily 0 May 21, 2008